I decided to "Waste a little time" so I peformed my own investigation of whats for sale here on the BUY and SELL...

Over the past 10 days, Dec. 3rd Thru Dec 13th
there have been over 130 posts to the BUY and SELL for various items obviously including Steels..

so here are the results of the Steels FOR SALE at the time of this post.

EMMONS 11 all variety's PP, II's and III's
Sho Bud 7
Carter 4
MSA 4

other brands 1 or 2 of each..Derby, Fessy's, Zum, Mullens etc...

So what are we to assume by this ? Well the first would be that there are not more Carters for sale than another leading brand..

So what does this little excercise really tell us ? Nothing...other than there's about 30 Steels for sale , all types all brands..

Trying to read anything more into it would be pretty difficult..

Oh yeh..of the 4 Carters for sale, none of them are mine..but I did sell my Sho-Bud and MSA over the past 2 years..and I did sell 1 Carter to get another..

T

quote:

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I didn't realize that this was a topic of earlier discussion

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I am wondering why you asked the question at all. Going back 100 days I found about a dozen guitars that were Carters. Two were from a dealer, its pretty obvious why he would want to sell his. Two were Carter starters, I am guessing the owners are either upgrading their equipment or facing the fact that they suck as a steel player and are getting out. One was a trade for another Carter, D-12 to D-10. I found one that was around six months old being offered for sale by Herby Wallace. If I can scare up the cash I think I might buy it, it would be nice to have a loafer around the house.

It appears that the used ones are selling O.K.
and the last time I looked there were no factory demos up for grabs so if you want a new one I guess you will have to get in line and wait like the rest of us did.

I am perhaps the single biggest offender in the "buy it, sell it" category. I have bought and sold around seven steel guitars in the last two years. For me, it was an exploration. Three years ago I knew nothing about steel guitar and since I live in an area that doesn't have a lot of steel players, my only recourse was to buy them, try them, and then move on. Fortunately, the Forum and Ebay allowed me to sell steels at pretty much the price I paid for them, but these were used steels (for the most part).

I am totally happy with the guitar, I just need money more than a guitar right now.

If you'd have bought almost any other brand you'd be in much better shape.

The fact that so many people are willing to loose hundreds of dollars just to get rid of BRAND NEW ones is the all the proof you need to know something's wrong somewhere.

[This message was edited by David Friedlander on 31 December 2003 at 11:58 PM.]

The Carter Steel Company , just as all the other Steel manufacturers are not in the used Steel Guitar business, they are in the business of manufacturing and selling new Steel guitars.For these companies, selling used has really got to be in their favor as it is in direct conflict with new inventory and manufacturing, which is where their paychecks come from and how they pay their bills.

I wonder if the folks at any of the other leading Steel guitar manufacturers would give back close to a full retail refund on an item that they recently sold at full price. You would basically be asking them to give back all there income and profit for that sale. This is not part of business 101.

On another note, if everyone that made a Carter purchase within the past year or so put them up for sale there would be no room for anything else in the BUY and SELL area of this forum. Is everyone always satisfied ? no way, should they be ? Possibly but that ain't gonna happen..

IS everyone that purchased other brands of Steels 100% satisified ? no way..Thats why other brands are always for sale as well..

If folks are in a hurry to buy something they run the risk of not being satisfied..and likewise if they are in a hurry to sell something they most likey will not get close to their desired sell price. An entire Industry was born from the second statement..PAWN SHOPS...and Used Car Dealerships..

What a dealer would pay for something vs what he would sell it for are two different things.

Wholesale vs new or used retail.

It's established that Carters are not for everyone, but neither are Chevy's or Fords.

How many are willing to sell at a huge loss ?

Of the posts here on this forum over the past 10 days, approx 75 posts, there is only 1 Carter listed..but there are many many Steels listed.

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 01 January 2004 at 08:56 AM.]

If someone purchases a PSG assembles it one time, and played it in a sercure environment, I'm sure that you could potentiall still have a new guitar at the end of that week.

Couldn't you not recieve a guitar, have it for one week and keep it "brand new"- kept in your house?
This is not something that goes stale.

An automobile, if registered, can no longer be sold as new. This has a large impact on the price.

The "Demo" models Carter sells, they offer for about $100-200 less than new.
Also- automibles are sold by multi billion dollar entities.
You'd think a company operating in such a small community would be more concerned with how they are percieved.
I'm absolutely sure that there are other PSG manufacturers willing to give a money back guarantee on an S10 or D10

Obviously there are some people who are very satisfied with Carter guitars- that's really not the point.
In spite of all the statistics you might quote- it seems that Jim's point is true.
A lot of people sell brand new Carters.
See anyboby selling a BRAND new LeGrande or Zum?

I'm glad to see people love the Carter guitar and rush to defend it.
That's just the point of an open forum.
BTW- I'm also in the internet sales business.
I sell high line items - sales genterated, like Carter's, by a web site.
EVERTHING we ship goes out with a money back guarantee.

[This message was edited by David Friedlander on 01 January 2004 at 12:42 PM.]

Was it agreed that you could purchase the Steel and return it with a minimal loss? Or are we now all thinking that everything is like Wallmart.Buy it try it return it for full refund. Even the Electronic stores are getting away from that policy and going to a 15% restocking fee. As much as I hate to admit it, I don't disagree with them.

We have a very small family business and it is murder when folks decide after a substantial purchase that they just don't want it anymore. We do refund but are changing our policy to exchange. One thing that always gets overlooked is that when someone buys something from us and takes it out of our storefront,and brings it back 2 or 3 weeks later, we have lost 2 or 3 weeks of opportunity for that item. We are a very small business , we absorb all looses and liabilities.

If a person buys something new and returns it, it is no longer new..and I personally would not like to learn that I purchased a new Steel only to find out someone else had it before me and returnded it.

I think the main reason I wrote a reply at all on this topic was due to the premise that if you buy a Steel for $2000 it goes to $1400 in 7 days. It sold to a dealer at an offered purchase price , fair or not, of $1400. The selling price will be as stated above maybe $200 less than the new price which sounds about right making the street value $1800 on a good day maybe $1700 on an average day. But the WHOLESALE purchase price will always be several hundred under that price , and thats where the used car comparison comes in. It's the same business principle. This part of the business equation does not change.

Economics 101, We work somewhere during the day to earn our salary and spend our money buying Steel guitars. For Steel guitar manufacturers they earn their money selling Steel guitars, if we don't buy a Steel they don't eat.

Sorry for the long rant but I still contend that the price that a dealer gives you, for anything, is not the market value. The market value is set by what they can sell it for.

I'm sorry to hear that your deal did not go the way you expected and I hate that for you.

The good news is you will recover from this episode, if you haven't already and chalk this one down as hard luck experience.

Myself, after many many years of buying and selling gear I live by a few hard and fast rules.

BUY IT TRY IT RETURN IT with written agreement at purchase or as I normally do, purchase off the used market at a fair price.

I am never in a hurry and am willing to wait..I am no longer willing to take a loss or compromise..been there done that..it only took me 40 years to get this cemented in my brain !

Good luck..come on down to NC, we got great Barbeque..I'll buy ..

I really do appreciate your response too.
I think the $700 was well spent. At no time did I NOT feel this way.
You are 100% corect- I never thought to ask what might happen if I was not happy. Therefore I have no right to complain about the offer. Heck, I accepted, right?
When I told people about this, people in music stores- they thought I had gotten a raw deal.
Sam Ash, for example, offers a 14 day full money back guarantee.
They know I return a lot of stuff.

Of course, they also know I've kept close to $50k from Sam Ash over the past 10 years.
Many of those purchases I would never had made without the confidence of knowing I could return if I did not like it.

Maybe my experience might cause people to ask a manufacturer when they order. This would be a good thing.
I think that a manufacturer could take a return- ispect it thouroughly- and if it's in brand new condition, they can sell it as new. After all, when someone buys from an established dealer, or a manufacturer, one of the benefits you expect is back up after the purchase. I'd say this adds quite a bit to the price of an item like a PSG.
Therefore, if a manufacturer gets a return, they can sell it as brand new if it's in brand new condition. If they want to be honest, offer 5% off and call it a demo.
By the way, if you want to use the Automobile anaogy- there it is.
A car dealer discounts a desirable demo very lightly. And sells them.
Dealers will usually get higher prices than private sellers.

SO- if your family business is dealing in perishable items. Items that are subject to seasonal changes- you can't possibly be expected to accept returns.
IF however you are selling a product which a major seller sells and accepts returns- you're going to have to learn how to figure out ways to deal with that.
If your industry is being taken over by the internet ( like the PSG industry, to a certain extent) then you'll need to deal with the increased competiton and money back guarantees.
Ask a manufacturer what he'll do if you don't like the product and you'll know what HE thinks it's worth.

Concerning Sam Ash, they don't make anything, they rep a few thousand items and they return items to the manufacturers who I am certain are not real happy about returns but it's contractual so they have no choice. Sam Ash is kinda like the Wallmart of Musical Instruments and both Sam Ash and the Guitar Center were kinda forced into this 30 day return period primarily because of Internet sites such as Musicians Friend. I doubt that returns were in the original business plan, actually I know they weren't as I have been doing business of sorts with Sam Ash from my early NYC days back in the mid 60's.. Both Sam Ash and The Guitar Center today are multi department retail stores competing big time for each others business and for the Interent business that they are loosing.

regardless...

Everyone should be satisfied with a purchase and if possible have recourse. But I suspect that there are no Steel Guitar manufacturers out there that would offer full recourse on an Instrument , they are all to small and are working to close to the line.

And yes..Lexington has good grub..

later
t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 01 January 2004 at 04:44 PM.]

You're right, Sam Ash does not manufacture guitars, so their considerations are different than that of a guitar manufacturer.

Although it was not part of the plan years ago, the 30 day return policy indicates that Sam Ash, regardless of whether or not they made the item, stand behind it.

If you're going to do business with someone, that's really the bottom line: Will they stand behind the product?Ultimately, Sam Ash gain more customers because of this policy. Simple business- if not, they'd discontinue it.

Carter guitars has shown that they are only interested in the profit from the sale- they devote ZERO resources to satisfying customers once they have the money.

Even this thread here- I see that John Fabian posted elsewhere on this forum today-why does he not defend his company right here?

Tony, if you do a little checking, you'll find that there ARE pedal steel manufacturers intersted in making sure people like their product.
If you buy a Franklin and you're unhappy- send it back and get a refund. I'm not making this up.

Going back to business 101, Carter might have a smaller bottom line if they did accpet returns- sure, it might cost them some money.
Here's my question to you- If their cavalier attitude and horrendous treatment of people continues- if so many people never want to do business with them again, how much is that going to affect the bottom line?
Keep treating your customers like crud, and they'll simply dissapear.

I'm not a teacher but rather these are my thoughts , opinions , education and experience on business and they way it is conducted. And I too finished #1 in my Dale Carnegie class

Sam Ash does not sell anything that they cannot return to a manufacturer for full refund.It is not a policy they invented, it is a policy they had no choice to offer to stay in business and compete.

The mere fact that they acccept returns is not an indication that they are willing to go on a limb for you..why ?..because they loose nothing, they get a full recourse from who..? Yes..the manufacturer again. If companies want to do business with a very large chain such as Sam Ash, and reap the benefits of extremely huge distibution, they bite the bullet and contractually agree to take product back. Sam Ash never looses. They are not in business to loose..ever...they personally stand behind nothing..they have no stake in the merchandise.

I have 2 friends that work in Sam Ash and the Guitar Center and this is whats going on now. Folks buy stuff, use it and then bring it back because they can. They never had any intention of keeping it, they just needed it for gig or a session, whatever..Sam Ash gives a full refund, then they sell it at a discount , 'cause it is not new. Guess who took the hit..I recently went in to buy a tube preamp for recording, the one I wanted was $149..They were out of stock, but they did have one someone had purchased and returned in less than 3 days..The clerk bragged about it being only used for 3 days..sound familiar here ?I looked it over, it looked fine, and I paid $99. It works fine..but someone took a 33% loss..and I it was not Sam Ash. Amazingly I told the clerk this looks brand new why didn't you resell it as new ( after I paid $99 of course) and he said,because we don't want the NC Atty General coming in the store for any reason other to buy something.It's against the law.

How was this transaction good for the manufacturer ? It wasn't.

It appears to me that you ordered a custom built guitar to your specs and decided to return it for whatever reason. You're original complaint was that it lost it's street value in 7 days because they would not give you full recourse, then you accepted, then you decided to bash the beejeezus out of them and then moved into the lame guitar mode.

I have owned 6 Steels in my time, none of them were finished underneath..why would they be ? Maple as you stated will outlive you and the next 10 owners.

I am sorry you did not like your Steel and feel the deal was bad..but you accepted the offer for the return, thats not anyones issue but your own.

Now this and the other thread have turned into yet just another "Lets Bash Carter Guitars" thread..problem is this time there's very few takers. It's an old story bordering on worn out. Everyone knows there are a few camps of Steels up here and some still feel if you are not in thier camp you are playing a "Lesser" Instrument..I'm certainly ok with that. Playing my Carter D10 does not prevent me from playing "L'll Darlin"..I am happy to sit down next to someone with a superior Steel to mine and show them a few licks that I learned along the way, but do keep in mind, I am not a teacher..or a PRO..but rather a Professional Hack..

We , as usual , have only heard 1 side of this story, your side if you will. There is another side out there as always..and an open internet forum is not the proper place for business to be discussed. Facts are not relevant on the Internet, neither is actual identity.

Perhaps if another manufacturer does take returns, it is mutual and understood at the time of the sale. Binding contract if you will.

Sounds like you now have an Instrument to your liking..and at the end of the day thats what counts.

Play it in good health..

Time to move on...
t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 03 January 2004 at 05:35 AM.]

THere's nothing wrong with a re-stock fee.
My company does charge a re-stock fee.
If Sam Ash, or Guitar center, or the manufacturers involved ( BTW- Sam SAsh ofers a blanket return policy- all their inventory is covered, so it's unlikely every manufacterer supports this) were loosing money because of it, they would change to policy.

The reason I decided to let people know what happeded to me has nothing to do with the $700 I lost.I've stated over and over again: My feelings about the guitar are subjective- totally my opinion.
And as one of the lesser players around here- my opinion on the quality of the guitar is unimportant in this discussion.

On the subject of how to treat people, well, I do have a lot of experience.

My treatment was SO bad that I felt the need to let others know.

I pleaded with the person in question to "play nice"
I specifically asked that she treat me in a respectful manner. No dice. BTW- even if I'm the biggest pain in the butt customer in the world, why should I need to plead to be treated decently?

Yes, this is an open forum.
If there are things I'm missing, I'd really like to know.
AS far as support: I've gotten numerous letters from folks thanking me for taking a stand.
I'm sorry it came to this- and I repeat- I made every effort to deal nicely with these people- they refused, and got me mad enough to let as many people know as I can

Carter, who chooses to ignore this, or use others to defend them, is missing a great opportunity to
a) prove me wrong
b) show everyone else that they stand behind the product, and treat people well.

I haven't been here all that long- but are there "Emmons bashing fests?"
The fact that this is a repeated activity should tell y'all something.

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 03 January 2004 at 02:40 PM.]

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[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 04 January 2004 at 07:08 AM.]

The manufacturer regardless of their own terms, agrees to take back the item and makes an offer for this no return item, the person accepts the offer and returns the item.

The terms and conditions on this custom made item were clear, NO RETURNS But yet, they did take it back..how interesting..thats really odd..why would a company do that? How foolish of them..

It must be because they offer such poor customer service. Shame on them.

t

I tried hard to maintain good relations with Carter- then again, think about this- I'm buying a $2000 guitar from them, why should it be so much work?
Suffuce it to say the way everything was handled by them got me angry enough to post. It's really not about the money at all.

If I made an unreasonable request, it could have been handled with grace.

They are honest people, we just don't see things about customer service the same way.

I'm a believer in karma- and I wish neither Carter, nor the people who run it any harm.
As far as the question of this thread- Why do so many people sell brand new Carter guitars?
Well, how many guitars can you buy and have shipped within a month?
If you know you could just buy another, then you're more likely to sell.
The more boutique custom brands have people waiting 6 months plus- this in itself makes such guitars more desirable ( financially) than one which is produced in far greater quantities.