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 The Steel Guitar Forum
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 I hate to say it ,but it's here.
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| Author | Topic: I hate to say it ,but it's here. |
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Myron Labelle unregistered |
posted 28 February 2005 09:28 AM
I went to a Music Store the other day to get a new Accoustic and I heard a steel coming from one of the rooms. I casually walked over to see who the player was and I was floored. Sitting behind a keyboard and playing what sounded like a Steel was a young guy. He lacked one thing tho the feel of what should be played and the simularity soon sounded like a electronic piece of Crap. Thus after listening for a few minutes I had to leave. But somewhere some band leader or session producer will soon get the Idea to replace a piece with a chip. ------------------ |
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Ray Minich Member From: Limestone, New York, USA |
posted 28 February 2005 10:53 AM
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It'll be good enough for those that don't know a thing about the instrument or it's methods. Our economics prof introduced us to the term "satisficing", which means something like, "almost good enough" (as in "inferior goods" or goods of low(er) quality that get the job done, but not very well). You know, kinda like that guitar Estaban sells. |
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Glenn Austin Member From: Montreal, Canada |
posted 28 February 2005 01:46 PM
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The Estaban guitar comes ready to play with six strings !! |
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Webb Kline Member From: Bloomsburg, PA |
posted 28 February 2005 02:34 PM
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This isn't anything new. The first keyboard I had that had a good steel sound was an O1W Korg that I bought back in '91. It still has the most convincing steel sound of any I've heard. The keys had touch-sensitive vibrato and with the pitch-bend handle, it was pretty scary. I actually used it on a studio project once when the producer decided he wanted to try steel in a song, but didn't want to wait for me to go home and get mine. I was hired to play keys. I could tell the difference, but most everybody thought I played steel on the cut. Still, I can't imagine someone who doesn't know anything about playing psg ever getting it to sound like much. [This message was edited by Webb Kline on 28 February 2005 at 02:38 PM.] |
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Drew Howard Member From: Mason, MI, U.S.A. |
posted 28 February 2005 02:39 PM
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Myron, I've heard these steel guitar samples on keyboards before, heard one house band use them years ago. Don't worry, people will always want the real thing. Drew ------------------ [This message was edited by Drew Howard on 01 March 2005 at 07:42 AM.] |
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Jim Cohen Member From: Philadelphia, PA |
posted 28 February 2005 03:05 PM
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quote:Yeah, that's what all the string and horn players used to say. Oh yeah, and the B3 players too, and... |
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Bill Hatcher Member From: Atlanta Ga. USA |
posted 28 February 2005 04:12 PM
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This sample stuff will take a LOT of work from steel players just as it has from horn, string, harp, drum etc. players. Remember that these guys will and do use this stuff for pad and such, hiding it in tracks so you won't really hear the fakeness of it. When these guys produce a track and they need the "essense" of a sound, it really does not matter if it is the real thing or not. Great for demos and the like. Be very afraid. |
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Richard Sinkler Member From: Fremont, California |
posted 01 March 2005 02:52 AM
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My Korg Triton actually has a patch called Pedal Steel Guitar. Haven't been able to make it sound like one yet though. ------------------ |
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John Cox Member From: Bryan, Texas, USA |
posted 01 March 2005 09:45 AM
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I believe the end is nowhere near yet. Last week as I was walking around the Astrodome complex, I saw numorous bands with steels in them. That tells me people still want the real deal. J.C. |
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Mark Lind-Hanson Member From: San Francisco, California, USA |
posted 01 March 2005 11:00 AM
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I wouldn't be a bit afraid of it. I have played on a Korg with a sitar patch, and while it managed to sound a LITTLE like a sitar, the whole thing about using patches is to have a feel for what makes the instrument you are sampling work! Make horns sound like they are actually breathing, not superhuman long lung blasts, pizzicato (etc) on plucked instruments (etc). Having the patch won't make a bit of difference without an idea of whatit takes a player on the real thing to get the tone and phrasing that they do. You couldn't buy that kind of techinique for any amount of money- you have to earn it. And 9 times out of 10, you can HEAR what's synthesier fakery these days. Uusally a keyboard player still has a keyboard player's chops and approach to chords. |
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Ron Whitfield Member From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA |
posted 01 March 2005 11:21 AM
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About 10 years ago at the local mall, a guy was putting a new keyboard w/all the bells and whistles thru it's paces while incorporating them into one Hawaiian song he was playing and was doing so well I listened. Towards the end I'm thinking how wierd/cool it would be if there was a steel guitar 'button'. Well, sure 'nuff at the ending he hit it and did a fine steel guitar replicated flourish. The crowd (me) went wild, and then home, happy. In the hands of someone talented, this thing can do damage to steelers careers, but in the end, there ain't nothin' like the real thing. Too bad most folk don't relize that. The positive flip side is, someone will be interested enuf to find out about the sound they heard and want to investigate further, and end up discovering steel, and maybe become a player. You never know... |
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Les Anderson Member From: Rossland, BC, Canada |
posted 01 March 2005 12:10 PM
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I will sadly say that within the next eight to ten years, we will be hearing entire band back ups that are nothing but electronics. Many of the new CDs use a Rythm Master as a back up sound. They can sound like a full fledged back up band to the average Joe who buys these CDs. The world of electronics is changing much faster than we can keep up to it! ------------------ |
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Ron Whitfield Member From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA |
posted 01 March 2005 12:39 PM
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In the fields we're talking about, change is usually in some positive/progressive way, which basically means something new is being added to the pool. Great, I can't wait to see what's next. |
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Webb Kline Member From: Bloomsburg, PA |
posted 01 March 2005 03:47 PM
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Ron said: in the hands of someone talented, this thing can do damage to steelers careers, but in the end, there ain't nothin' like the real thing. ----------------------------------------------- That's exactly the point. Sure I could make that old Korg's steel patch sound like a steel because I'm a steel player and a keyboard player. It's the same with sax or anything else. I can do some pretty convincing stuff on a keyboard if it is with the instruments that I have a knowledge of. But, for example, I can't make one sound like a sitar because I have very limited knowledge of the sitar. I think most of the synth manufacturers have gotten away from emulating most acoustic or traditional instruments. I had a Triton for a while and got rid of it because it was a hip-hop toy in my opinion. Korg blew it when they got away from the old AI synthesis of the O1W days. Besides, why should we fear synthetic steel guitar emulation when the real fear is that the recording industry has already ushered in its obsolescence? |
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Donny Hinson Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A. |
posted 01 March 2005 07:31 PM
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Show me a circumsizer or any other keybarf played by anybody that can sound like John Hughey or Buddy Emmons! Bending a few notes or a chord is one thing, making the notes "cry" and tear at your heartstrings is quite another. I haven't heard anything even close to a real steel yet outa one of those high-tech Farfisas. |
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Kevin Hatton Member From: Amherst, N.Y. |
posted 01 March 2005 09:21 PM
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I've heard them. They don't sound anything like a real pedal steel player. Much to do about nothing. If your good, you'll always work. |
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Ron Whitfield Member From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA |
posted 01 March 2005 09:22 PM
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But when is the last time you got emotional over a song on corporate radio? All that's needed for some is a sound. It probably won't be a sound you or me would call good, but it might convince someone to like it and help sell the record. |
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Les Anderson Member From: Rossland, BC, Canada |
posted 01 March 2005 10:44 PM
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I agree with you guys whole heartedly that an electronic gizmo will never replace the "real" sound of a steel guitar -for us-. Buuuuut,,,,, studios and the people who buy their music don't give a rats butt about it being the real thing or not. You put a good player on a Fender Strat with a palm lever along side of Buddy Emmons and let some guy who is in Wal Mart buying a CD to identify the instruments, I doubt if he could; or, worse, even give a damn. Those who play a steel guitar are hooked on its emotional sound and love the feelings it brings out in us. Sadly however, the average Joe on the street really doesn't give a hoot what has made the sound that he wants or likes to hear. As long as it sounds good to his or her ear, so be it. ------------------ [This message was edited by Les Anderson on 01 March 2005 at 10:46 PM.] |
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Theresa Galbraith Member From: Goodlettsville,Tn. USA |
posted 03 March 2005 03:50 AM
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I'm with Drew!  |
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Jim Cohen Member From: Philadelphia, PA |
posted 03 March 2005 04:22 AM
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Well, I'd be with Drew, too, IF he had written: "Some people will always want the real thing". The reality is that some will, and some just won't care. |
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Theresa Galbraith Member From: Goodlettsville,Tn. USA |
posted 03 March 2005 05:05 AM
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Sure you'll have a few that won't care, but more that do. |
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Bryan Bradfield Member From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. |
posted 03 March 2005 10:37 AM
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I was recently in the studio with a highly respected producer, who had a good career as an instrumentalist in the both the United States and Canada. As we talked, I sat beneath a gold record he had produced. I played one of 3 "real" instruments on a cut. The majority of the instruments on the cut were sampled sounds. This producer strongly favors synthesized sounds. The producer, by the way, played one of the other 2 "real" instruments on the cut. [This message was edited by Bryan Bradfield on 03 March 2005 at 10:39 AM.] |
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Jerry Warner Member From: Charleston, West Virginia, USA |
posted 03 March 2005 09:36 PM
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I AGREE W/ DONNY HINSON, ALL THE BULL CRAP THAT THEY TRY TO PLAY ON KEYBOARD WILL NEVER SOUND LIKE JOHN OR BUDDY, OR RUDD, OR DAY, OR SEYMOUR OR MR BYRD, CURLEY CHALKER OR REMINGTON & ALL THE OTHER GREATS SO TAKE YOUR BULL CRAP KEYBOARDS AND STICK THOSE WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE, OR BUY YOURSELF A STEEL GUITAR FROM MR BOBBE SEYMOUR AND CHUCK YOUR KEYBOARD INTO SOME TRASH DUMP BECAUSE YOU CAN NOT REPLACE A GOOD PEDAL STEEL PLAYER IN YOUR BAND, ENOUGHT SAID. |
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Webb Kline Member From: Bloomsburg, PA |
posted 03 March 2005 10:41 PM
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I wouldn't put it that way. But, in reality, there is no physical way to duplicate any kind of advanced or even intermediate steel playing with a keyboard. But, if you know how to play steel and keys, you can do most of the fills that are common on today's records with a decent pedal steel sample on a keyboard. Paul Franklin's job is quite secure. |
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Miguel e Smith Member From: Phoenix, AZ |
posted 04 March 2005 08:42 AM
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I play keys also and we have nothing to worry about as steel players. The amount of effort a keyboardist would have to go to in order to really be consistently convincing (even at a mediocre level) would make it easier to just take up pedal steel and work hard at it. I know a few bands that don't have steel and the keyboard player talks about how much he sounds like a steel...the problem is that....I've heard them. It's a novelty suggestion of sound. If the gig demanded a full-time player, the keyboardist would not suffice...even a little. Miguel |
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Ray Montee Member From: Portland, OR, USA |
posted 04 March 2005 10:34 AM
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I know Pete Burak or Eric West (both local, working steel guitar-boys!) will be far more qualified to expand accurately/tecnically on this subject however I felt obliged to mention that one of our other local boys, who plays a fine steel guitar........has a gizmo that he plugs into his steel guitar and he quite convincingly sounds like a real piano, harpsicord and/or organ. He has the pianists' touch and when he plucks the strings on his guitar, it defintely sounds like a fine piano. NOW WHAT! Are keyboards going to be going by the way side, now that steel guitarists can accurately duplicate their sound AND TECHNIQUE? I'm just curious. |
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erik Member From: |
posted 05 March 2005 06:52 AM
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More often than not, eletronic simulations or actual samples are used as a novelty hook or hint of the real thing. It would not be useful in real song production. Just like the guitar sounds and chord/strum effects already in existence in Roland keyboards. ------------------ |
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erik Member From: |
posted 05 March 2005 07:02 AM
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BTW, very few keyboards have polyphonic aftertouch, which is necessary to produce authentic pedal steel sounds. It can also be done by stacking zones. But you're still stuck with only one note-bender. |
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Bryan Bradfield Member From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. |
posted 05 March 2005 08:51 AM
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It's great fun to discuss quality of sound, and "the real thing"; however, when it comes to recording, there are producers out there who want: (1) a good perfomance on the first pass (good equals accurate intonation, plus even volume levels, plus correct timing). (2) reliable performers. (3) a "sound" that the producer is instantly familiar with, and which does not have to be tweaked for his taste in tone. The real, "breathing" instruments will be up front in the mix, but some producers don't want to fuss around with people (unpredictable variables) for the background stuff. |
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Webb Kline Member From: Bloomsburg, PA |
posted 05 March 2005 08:51 AM
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I'm with Ray on this one! ROFL!  [This message was edited by Webb Kline on 05 March 2005 at 12:51 PM.] |
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