I have a customer from Germany who would
like me to set up a Palm Pedal rig to:
1.) Have one pedal to lower the 2nd string B to A
2.) Have second pedal raise the 2nd string B to C
3.) Have a third pedal raise the 4th string to D to E
4.) Press both 2nd string pedals together for Bb.
These pitch changes yield a lot of possibilities.

The basic design is together but before I get going on it I would like to get some input from some other players.

Can you suggest alternate functions for this tuning?

If you have tried Palm Pedals how did you mount them?
The Standard BP-12 assembly is too long
and the pedals extend beyond the bridge.
The Standard BP-15 is made for a flat surface
and would be over the resonator.
I will be making a "Dobro BP-15 mounting plate/tailpiece" that replaces the stock tailpiece. It allows for the assembly to be elevated and mounted by the use of existing resonator and tailpiece mounting screw points, and can be removed leaving the guitar unaltered!

(I hope not to offend anyone with this topic, if you
are not really interested in exploring this possibiliy,
please do not reply.)
Thank you,
db
Bigsby Palm Pedals

[This message was edited by db on 26 December 2004 at 09:38 AM.]

Regards
Tom

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Have a good 'un! JH U-12

All of these concerns are moot if the design and installation are done correctly.

It is difficult to definitively prove that something is impossible.
But, you can very easily prove that it is possible by simply doing it.

I thought that I would share with you some private email positive feedback that was related to the opening subject. (I guess they wanted to be anonymous, so I'll keep it that way).

Pedal Functions:

Having the pedals do something "musical", getting the commonly used chord forms (on the top three or more strings) at the open position, is paramount.
The primary: I, IV & V chords,
The secondary: II & VI chords
and the frequently used variations:
minor, dominant 7th, Major 6th etc.

Tunings and pedal functions
using the "stock" two pitch-raise pedals:

First example set-up:
Open F6th tuning: GBDfad
With the f pulled to g and the a pulled to a#.
Gets these "open" chord forms in the key of A#:
I (A# Major),
IV (D# Major 7th)
V (F Major 6th)
VI (G minor & G9th)
Or gets these "open" chord forms in the key of F:
I (F Major 6th)
II (G minor & G9th)
IV (A# Major)

This tuning is not good for the normal Key of G and has very few "hits" on the commonly used chord forms.

Another set-up example:
Open G7th tuning: GBDfbd
With the f pulled to g and the b pulled to c.
Gets these "open" chord forms in the key of G:
I (G Major, G dominant 7th & G sus4),
IV (C9th)
V (D minor 6thor 7th, Diminished 7th)
Or gets these "open" chord forms in the key of C:
I (C9th),
IV (F Major 6th)
V (G Major, G dominant 7th & G sus4)

Again,
it has very few "hits" on the commonly used chord forms.

The best two-pedal raise set-up:
Open G Major 7th tuning: GBDf#bd
With the f# pulled to g and the b pulled to c.
Gets these "open" chord forms in the key of G.
I (G Major & G Major 7th),
IV (C 9th)
V (D dominant 7th & D Major 6th)
VI (E minor 7th)
You also get the III (B) minor, which is not that useful.
But it does make available these chords at the adjacent related positions:
@ the 5th fret IV (C) chord position
> move to the VI (E minor)
@ the 7th fret V (D) chord position
> move to the I (G minor)
@ the 9th fret VI (E) chord position
> move to the II (A minor)

There are still major limitations with a raise only set-up. If one string could be lowered you can start with the standard tuning and get additional useful chord variations, and even more with an additional pedal.

Tunings and pedal functions using three pedals and a string lower function:

The "first" raise and lower set-up:
Open G tuning: GBDgbd,
one pedal that lower the b to a ,
and another that raises b to c
(both together combine for a#),
plus a pedal for a D string to E (4th or 1st).
Gets these "open" chord forms in the key of G:
I (G Major & G Major 6th)
IV (C Major 7th & C9th)
V (D sus4)
VI (E minor 7th)
You also get an A# Major 7th,
which is not related to the open Key.
The only adjacent related chord positions are:
@ the 2nd fret II (A) chord position
> move to the IV (C Major 7th)
@ the 9th fret VI (E) chord position
> move to the II (G Major 7th)

This set up does not have the best variation "hits".

The best three-pedal raise & lower set-up:
Open G tuning: GBDgbd,
one pedal that lowers the g to f#,
one that raises the b to c,
and the another that raises the d to e.
Gets these "open" chord forms in the key of G.
I (G Major & G Major 7th)
II (A minor 6th or A minor 7th)
IV (C Major & Major 7th)
V (D dominant 7th & D Major 6th)
VI (E minor)

These are all good "hits" for chord forms and variations.

The one major physical limitation that was mentioned was the excessive pedal overhang. The BP-12 is the only assembly that has been made to date for mounting on an acoustic instrument. With an overall length of 9.5" and the average "bridge-to-pin" distance on a Dobro of 7.25", this makes for nearly a 2.25" overhang ! Unplayable!
With a new mounting system to obtain the correct pedal position and the possible addition use of "swing-arms" the instrument can be played normally and the pedal use will not drastically alter the normal right hand position.

Thanks for all of your input.
db

[This message was edited by db on 09 December 2001 at 05:19 PM.]

BTW
"I didn't know you could set a palm pedal to lower a string." MT
Yes, the standard stock assembly cannot lower a string.
I will be making available an assembly that can do this
(on one string only) with the use of "whammy-bar" parts
(String-bar, spring and bracket).
The pedal is secured to the string-bar shaft and the
string passes through a hole in front of the pivot-point.
On some applications this can also be done with an additional arm, that is connected to a pivot-linkage and roller, instead of directly to the string.

db

[This message was edited by db on 11 December 2001 at 07:54 PM.]

I also wondered about the string friction and string winding drag on the bridge: does it really saw the grooves?!...ouch! Is there a source out there for a roller bridge? (like on a PedaBro)

And as for the comments about the difficulty of picking while holding a palm pedal or two down...I guess that's why the Parsons/White strap actuation is so cool. There is an easier-to-install peg head end gizmo that also works off the strap called the Higgins, but I don't think it would be as good twisted 90 degrees as in a dobro set up.

But back to the original thread: what's a musically useful set up? Using the palm pedals to play licks like a pedal steel doesn't seem like it's worth the trouble. If you're into GBDgbd-bluegrass style stuff, good bar technique would be faster, louder, more dynamic, etc.

I play a 7 string with a G6th tuning (GBDegbd) and have wanted to change string pitches for chords, not licks. Two lowers that would be great would be to lower the D to Dd and to lower the low B to get Bb, giving fuller chords like m7b5, etc. Think C6th neck pedals. More for chords that you can't make with slants, than for licks. Somebody surely has done this...?

Hip shot makes a cool bridge with tunable presets. You can have a raise and a lower for each string. You flip a little three-position lever to switch pitch. Good for changing tunings quickly between songs. Would be harder to do it during a tune. I've seen just one, installed on a Sheerhorn thin body electric, but without a roller bridge (and nut?) it wouldn't go to and return to pitch accurately. Anybody solve this?

Of course, there's always the MatchBro.

[This message was edited by Bob Knetzger on 24 January 2002 at 10:10 AM.]

I had three palm pedals on a 10-string dobro back in '76 and '77.

The tuning, low to high was:

E B E F# G# B E G# D# F#
10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

I raised the 8th string E to E#
I raised the 6th string G# to A
I raised the 5th string B to C#

The E to F change (as it's more commonly called) had an extension on it made from a broken ShoBud knee lever and mounted on the adjustment screw of the lever. I could get that change with my wrist as I got the B to C# change with my palm.

So, on strings 8, 6, and 5, I could get all 3 inversions of a major chord.

It was fun while it lasted, but, after a year or so, I got tired of having to contort my right hand in order to get the pedal changes, and decided to just get a lot better with slant bars and know my instrument better.

Somewhere I think I have a scan from a Japanese Country Music magazine of me and that beast. I'll look around for it if there's any interest.

------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A&G

[This message was edited by db on 31 December 2004 at 10:58 PM.]

------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A&G

He uses a standard BP-15 assembly on a 7 string Dobro.

He will be teaching at the resophonic seminar next June 13th - 17th in Maryville, Tenn.
And will devote some time specifically with the use of palm pedals.

This would be the event to check out if you are having difficulty or
have an interest in learning more about the use of Dobro palm pedals.

------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A&G

[This message was edited by db on 05 January 2005 at 12:18 PM.]

Check out the "DOBRO Chord Forms Chart" on the website:
www.bigsbypalmpedals.com
Click on everything . . . It takes you somewhere!

------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A&G