quote:

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Now some of the pickers use so much pedal work, a listener MIGHT have difficulty in identifying what tune is actually being played

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Those FANTASTIC Hal Rugg "note values" all fitting PERFECTLY into the measures is so far away from me, I just shake my head and smile.

That "wind up and crash" lick that Mr E did knocked me completely off the couch! I'd like to see the tab on that one..

After watching the Fantastic Joe Wright and Sarah Jory playing, sometimes I think vocals are overused.

Between the two videos, I'm wondering if I even play the same instrument!

I better GET TO WORK! (Especially badmouthing Sierras the way I have/do.. )

That's like Buglers thinking Trumpet players overuse valves.

All is well.

And getting better.

Mr Rugg and Mr E. For a couple guys in their 70s they SURE put out the MUSIC!

That's also like "going over to the No Peddlers Forum and asking "Don't these dang thing need {i}Pedals[/i]"

Just my take from the AARP perspective.

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

[This message was edited by Gene H. Brown on 12 December 2003 at 10:54 PM.]

They learned to play steel guitar, and then learned how to use pedals to add to that. They where/are not dependant on them. They use them to enhance their playing.

I think that today, alot of young pedal pushers who've never played without them use their pedals as a crutch, instead of a tool.

It is a much bigger pallet to paint with.

And the ability to use them as transitions from different states of the steel is wonderful.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

I don't see this as a negative..I see it as an advancement..afterall..it was the Pedal sound that brought a Steel to it's prominance.

Now..if I could just figure out which ones to press and when..and then tune the dang things..this thing would be a breeze !

I remember a couple of years ago Herby Wallace was asked to play with the "Non-Peddler" in St. Louis, he set up his guitar and they disconnected his floor pedals. Herby was still cooking!!!

Walter

I sometimes tire of the "standard" sounds that come out of the steel guitar, whether it be the A+B mash or endless hammer-ons and pull-offs somewhere near the third fret on a G tuned dobro.

There's a place for these cliche licks (aside from the obvious place, I mean...) and phrasing makes a big difference--and it's not really the pedals' fault--but don't tell me that pedals don't lend themselves to stuff sounding quite similar a lot of the time.

It's not just pedals though. A lot of times the tuning will "dictate" what kind of sounds come out, by making some things easier to do than others.

So it's still ultimately up to the player, of course, but there's a reason why beginners on any instrument tend to sound similar (just think of the millions of beginner guitar players playing G, C and D songs all day long).

Oh, and as for the melody getting lost in a mess of pedalled notes and "because-I-CAN" speed licks: it doesn't take pedals to wank--I'm living proof.

-Travis

[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 13 December 2003 at 04:20 PM.]

quote:

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Pedal steel in my book does not equate with SPEED PICKING any more than it does sweet and gentle love songs. Therefore, lap steel does not equate, in my book, only to blues and/or loud funk!

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I'm afraid I'm gonna have to look at that equation in long hand form before I can ask my Theoretical Equation Division to work overtime. They've had a long week.

I'll look at it again when my head clears. Don't hold your breath tho....

After watching that Hal/Buddy video, I'd have to provisionally answer no to your one question. Even with the "possibly" qualifier. It doesn't "lose flavor" the flavor merely changes to suit different tastes. One of their tunes I didn't have the slightest idea what tune they were playing til I think it ended up to be "A Train".

Tasted good to me, even when Hal put 32 notes where 30 would ordinarily belong.. I'll be a week trying to figure out which two sets of triplets he turned into 16ths, adding one...

Hmm.....

EJL

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Eric West
'78 Pro III Sho-Bud
'75 MSA Red Baron
'63FLH 90cid Panhead
-Peavey: When it's *not* about "The Sound"-
"You can Smart Yourself Dumb.
Why Can't you Dumb yourself Smart?"-Me
Some people play music out of love for it. Some for the money. I play it mostly out of Spite.
-Me_
"At my age, sometimes I run out of Adrenaline, but I've still got plenty of Gall.." -Me-

Each one of us is a Universe. Worlds are a dime a dozen.

-Eric West-

I think the reason players like Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Lloyd Green, and Curley Chalker play/played pedals so well is because they started without them.
They learned to play steel guitar, and then learned how to use pedals to add to that. They where/are not dependant on them. They use them to enhance their playing.

I think that today, alot of young pedal pushers who've never played without them use their pedals as a crutch, instead of a tool.

Chris S.

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Eat your favorite food three times every day and you soon will beg for something else!!!

Walter

To assume that because one grew up playing non pedals makes them more educated in music theory is a stretch..what they learned was a different technique..not different music theory.The learned and played under a different set of rules.

Loyds uses his same set-up probably because he is so comfortable with it and spent a lifetime becoming the master that he is..his Steel still has 3+4 .His technique is what brings him to the forefront.

I personally don't think the 2 Steels should be compared equally..

So a young player, say 30 years old ..are we saying that he will never learn the theory that a former non pedal player knows? Hog wash..What he won't have is the exposure to non pedal technique..

Should we as players seek to apply as much technique as possible to our playing ? Of course..If one uses the AB pedals or knee levers for every move or gliss on the E9th neck then of course they will never reach or come close to potential..but thats not theory..it's technique..

I also contend that we have all been chasing PF and MJ licks for the past decade..

Does the 1st string whole tone raise come to mind..or the 4th pedal ? Or "E" playing Danny Boy on the E9th...I sure would like to hear some of these phrases played on a non pedal guitar..but thats not really a fair comparison is it..I guess it works both ways..

Ray mentions above that possible listeners cannot identify with what is being played..and he is right..all that means to me is that the player can't play melody lines or chooses not to..That can happen, and does, on any Instrument.Thats a lazy player..of which at times I am part of that camp...It's like Guitar player in a Blues Band playing the exact same pentatonic licks in every song, every day, every week, every year, every decade..ask him to play the melody line and he will probably have a stroke..

The Steels are related in there family tree but should not be compared on an equal level or playing field.

I am grateful for both camps and for all the great music that has come out of the past and the present .

T

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 14 December 2003 at 03:30 AM.]

The set tunings and pedal changes are all there and thats good,good for popularity of steel players,more people have learned that they too can sound like some of the great players,but not capture the style of their own as no pedal players HAD to do during the
years of so called "secret tunings".

By far and large,there are thousands upon thousands today who would not have chose to play steel guitar if the instrument had not been standardized and offered many thousands to sound a bit like those favorite players they admire.They would have been discouraged at the so called limitations of the instrument as it was. Joaquin and Speedy and Boggs and McAuliffe and Byrd and Wiggins and Helms Koefer,Ayres? shall I go on? had a style of their own,,can you name a few others than those few today who laid the ground work for what is happening today?

Outside of a few,,everyone sounds alike,and thats good because I enjoy all the steel players who ever they are and what they play
non or pedals.

I dont think this is overkill Tony..Its the facts and has been the opinion of many great non pedal players of today who were in fact weaned on no pedal.There is a definite advantage whether you agree or not.

Would you mind repeating what you posted please Tony the manufacturers today and all steel guitar related products are more popular than ever and thats great for business and those talented people who build these fine guitars,but an opinion is just that and my opinion is what I posted.

I play pedals as well,but the purity and abilty to explore what can be done without pedals only adds to what can be done with them.regardless I wish you a Merry Christmas to you and yours and your pedals as well.

Good to hear from you Mr.Prior.

Overkill No..Just the facts IMHO.

Just the facts

Sgt Joe Friday. edited I changed my name to Joe Thursday cause Friday ruined my weekends. Happy New Year. Whats that ole Hawaiian tune?? Keep your eyes on the hands,
didnt say anything about feet did it??

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 14 December 2003 at 05:35 AM.]

when you see charring.

A lot of it is an inability to admit one's not being able to do a thing, and then chastising others for doing it. I see it time and again. Not necessarily in this original poster's case.

I myself can't play slow multi voicing "Bill Stafford™" Beautiful Ballads. I try, but I can't. It's not in me. He's a genius (besides being a nice guy).

I won't say "Curley Chalker" cause the guy put down some of the hottest "pedal mashing" around at one time years ago.

Let alone Speedy West ( no relation) "bar slams" and lightning bar throws. (I try to do them as well as Pete B, and I end up throwing the bar at my south wall. ( I've got a dent in my wall to prove it ))

MOST of them had little basis in "Music" as opposed to "sound effects". I suppose that purists complained about "Guitar Take Off" with Jimmy Bryant..

A lot of the things that say locally Carl Johnson, or even Bill S in that "Big Syrup" BEAUTIFUL L-a-a-arge chord, low note fluidic sweeping style will get eaten up in a "Buck Owens" "Dwight Yoakum" or even in an "ET" or LJD type band setting post haste. The Bass and keyboards eat up all the lows and midrange notes, let alone all the "color chords". It, and they don't fit in "Merle Haggard" bands. If it did, then Merle, Buck, Dwight, Little Jimmy and ET would have incorporated it and them.

C'mon guys. What happened to "Chicken pickin'"? When did it stop "being valid".?

If I wanted to play a non peddler, I'd play one. If they weren't valid, I would think that Lloyd, Hal, Jimmy and Weldon would have kept their Oahus. Those guys were up for anything that was "hot". They still are from looking at that Hal/Buddy vid.

If I wanted to play Hilo March, Harbor Lights, Beyond the Reef, Tiny Bubbles, A Nightingale Sang in Barkley Square, or Hawaiian Wedding Song, after practing REAL HARD, as I do with the "machine gun stuff", I'd get a job in a band that played rest homes or free at Luaus. I'd focus more of my time learning all those old bar slants, and break out my National Tear Drop instead of hacking up into a Cat Can™ Dobro. I'd be able to keep from having to brush up on the PF Speed Picking excersizes I spent most of the summer learning.

Lloyd's solo on "Country Boy", ( Or as I am to find out in minute or two Bruce Bouten's) I could have dismissed as "mile a second-pedal mashing". Instead I took A YEAR and learned it pretty much "note for machine gun note". It wasn't easy, and didn't incorporate ANY "melody lines". It is the cornerstone of my "fast playing". I still have a hard time "polishing it up" from time to time.

I NEVER say that Slow Melodic Playing isn't a "valid style", or otherwise "beneath me". I easily could say that. They're only words.

I just can't do it. Not with the bands I choose to work with anyhow. So Shoo....( I'm saying that too much lately..)

Nor, with equal honesty, do I want to.

(There's a time and place for nearly everything.)

Those that "can" and "do", verily I say unto you:

You have your rewards.

Now go my son and rationlalize no more.

Bless you.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 14 December 2003 at 06:18 PM.]

I just think that some kids who started on pedals end up using there pedals to do EVERYTHING, and their bar simply turns into a vibrating capo.

It becomes a "pedal guitar" played with a steel, rather than a "steel guitar" played with pedals.

Yes, I agree,"Why own, carry and set up a pedal steel if you're not going to use them".

But play the pedals, don't let them play you.

Chris

[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 14 December 2003 at 03:57 PM.]

I bet that it was BB sometime ago.
I gave in on that in an agruement with a local player. Looks like some local player is going to be wearing a bandaid. I won a game of Five Finger Stick the Knife in the table™ ( which was what I bet him.) He can chose the knife, the table, and order of starting.

Either way. I don't think that makes much difference. Bruce Bouten has always exhibited a masterful sense of taste since I first heard him taking lessons through a wall from Bud Charleton 25 years ago. ( He was MUCH more advanced than I.) It's a tasteful classic that incorporated no melody line and violates the sensibilities of thousands. Mostly those that can't play it and then claim that "the don't want to". It took me about year to learn it, and I STILL miss a couple of the licks consistently.

(limps away.. to plug in the Sho~Bud and give Midnight in Ammarillo another run through... Ever so slowly)..

It is all about "taste".
I personally find that previous few "speed patterns" sound "tasty" to me, and only about 1/3 of those I learn ever get taken off the shelf. That MJ B/C pedal run sounds good in very few places, similar to the "foggy mountain breakdown" pattern. Lots of time it's just a "trick" to think fast enough to figure out what you're going to do the next four measures.

It sure beats playing a lame 6th chord and doing a bar slant and acting like "you could, but you just don't wanna" while everybody else is playing their butts off. That tells people that "you really don't want to be there". Just like rocketting into a "Solo from Mars™" on "Sweet Lorena" would show that I just "don't know the chords".

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 14 December 2003 at 06:22 PM.]

Today, it would be very difficult for a new player to get that kind of exposure. That doesn't mean they cannot become proficient.

I suppose it's the way you view it, I don't see Pedals as a crutch..I see them as part of the Instrument..Will some player choose to gliss with a Pedal over a Bar slide ? I suppose..but if it ends up sweet music..does it matter ? That's all I'm saying here..

If some player never learns to slide with the bar and always uses Pedals, then of course I would agree that that player is placing a limit on themself.

I love it all.. I wish Steel was my first Instrument. I wish I worked for Fender in the early days.I wish I knew Jody Carver personally . I wish he would come to my house and give me a lesson.

Now go over to the MUSIC section and listen to my wife sing "The Christmas Song" with me playing an 8 bar solo on the C6th with no pedals .

Later
T

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 15 December 2003 at 05:16 AM.]

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 14 December 2003 at 05:53 PM.]

My one remaining grandmother told me on the phone this pm that it was guess what..

An Oahu.

Squarish neck, raised nut, note values in white on black paper.

I can only faintly make out an ink emblem in the guitar body. I can't read it so I'll take her word for it. It needs rebuilding. The front was destroyed in an accident in 62. A few years ago she sent me the diamond stamped flat "bar" that she had for it.

I can't say that I had one back in the 30s like most of you guys, but I did have one when I was 3 yrs old..

That's right.

Here I am practicing my Speed Blocking technique.

Cute kid. I had so much better Taste back then. I had a crush on Della Street.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 14 December 2003 at 10:12 PM.]

I think some pedal changes are "fad-based" and somewhat over-used, but thats just me. I'm sure anyone listening to me for a while will here some repetition, but again you find that in all playing. Some folks call them "signature-licks" but either way they are the basis for each of our own sounds/individuality.

using pedals in lieu of slides, gliss, or tasteful slants is ok I guess, but the intrinsic beauty of this instrument lies in these little nuiances.

It's a matter of choice and individual taste. It's like Harley-Davidson riders, some of us like the Evo engine, others swear by the Pan Head, others the Shovel or Knuckle. It really doesn't matter what you ride, it's the destination itself.

Got to run now. The wife says I need to up my dosage after this post!!!

more of my $0.02 worth.

Ricky

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Boss Comp./Sustain, Ibanez Auto-Wah

[This message was edited by Ricky Littleton on 15 December 2003 at 01:39 PM.]