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Author
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Topic: 10 string spacing vs 12 string spacing
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Charles Tilley
Member From: Princeton, Texas USA
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posted 28 July 2004 04:19 AM
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I see a lot of 12 string steels being sold or traded for 10 string and a lot of the reason for this is the string spacing.If this is a big problem, why don't the manufacturers do something about this? The 12 string is a good idea IMHO because of the tuning it can handle, but I don't want one either because of the string spacing Anyone got any ideas or comments to share? ------------------
Charles Tilley ,
ETSGA Events Director
Bullard, Texas
1994 Carter D-10,1973 MSA D-10 Classic, RV3, Nashville 400 and Evans SE200
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William Peters
Member From: Effort, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 28 July 2004 04:50 AM
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Charles,Gee, I just went from a 10 stringer to a twelve, and I don't see any difference. I didn't actually measure it against my S-10, but it feels the same. On my Royal Precision Mullen U-12, it measures 3 1/16 inch across strings 1 thru 10, and 3 3/4 across 1 thru 12 at the changer. I don't know what other guitars measure, but thats what it is on the Mullen U-12. Biggest problem for me at first was finding string 8, but I quickly got over that.
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Bill http://www.wgpeters.com
Mullen RP U-12, Cougar SD-10, PV-260, Tubefex, PV TNT-115, Gibson SG, Squier P-Bass, Berhinger V-amp Pro |
John Daugherty
Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA
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posted 28 July 2004 05:16 AM
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There IS a difference on guitars I have played. You may not notice it so much if you don't play wide chords. I DO play wide chords a lot.
The only problem I have is trying to play both guitars and be good at it. If you stick to one guitar you should have no problem. |
Erv Niehaus
Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 28 July 2004 06:53 AM
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Some guitar makers squeeze 12 strings onto a 10 string neck and others make a wider neck to accomadate the extra strings. They used to do the same things with 6, 7 and 8 string guitars back in the stone age before pedals and levers!
Uff-Da! |
Dave Ristrim
Member From: Whites Creek, TN
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posted 28 July 2004 07:27 AM
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I play 12 stringers and as far as I know, there is no difference in string spacing in any of the brands I play. Emmons, Franklin, Mullen, Carter. The bridge fingers (where the string gets streched) are the same as a 10 string, just two more are added. If the manufacterer had different string spacing for a 10 and a 12 string steel, they wold have to make two different changer mechanisms for each model. Don't sound right to me.
Dave |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 28 July 2004 08:53 AM
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It depends on the brand. Some 12-strings have the same spacing as 10-strings, others have a narrower spacing for whatever reason. I think most people prefer that the spacing be the same as on a 10-string. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 28 July 2004 11:11 AM
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The string spacing is determined by the manufacturer, and it's usually the same for 10- and 12-string models. The spacing difference is typically by brand, not by number of strings.
Both of my Sierra S-12 guitars have wider string spacing than the D-10 Williams I just sold. All Sierras have the same spacing, as do all Williams guitars.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 28 July 2004 11:13 AM
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Erv wrote: quote:
Some guitar makers squeeze 12 strings onto a 10 string neck ...
Who are they? I've never seen such a thing. |
Lee Baucum
Member From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier
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posted 28 July 2004 11:22 AM
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The old Excel 12-string guitars had the strings very close together. A 10-string bar would cover all 12 strings.------------------
Lee, from South Texas
Down On The Rio Grande |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 28 July 2004 11:46 AM
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I have seen MSAs with very closely spaced strings, but I don't remember how many strings they had. |
Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 28 July 2004 12:07 PM
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I have a D10 & a D12. Going back and forth is driving me nuts. I'd love to have the wider spacing on both! |
Charles Tilley
Member From: Princeton, Texas USA
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posted 28 July 2004 01:17 PM
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These are all good comments. I have sat down behind 12 string guitars and for some reason, the strings seem closer together and I had trouble. Maybe it is just me. I would love to have the tuning of the 12 string but just can't switch over because of the strings.Whatever floats your boat I guess. Charles Tilley |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 28 July 2004 01:50 PM
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String spacing is indeed an important thing with respect to players of steel guitars. Jerry Byrd insists that the best spacing be 3/8". Many PSG's fall a bit shy of this. Some are closer to 11/32". And yes there are 12 strings with a closer spacing than comparable 10 sringers from the same manufacturer. If I am not mistaken, the Emmons' P/P 12 stringers had closer spacing. (Could be wrong though). One of the problems is a very wide distance across the strings if they use 3/8" spacing on 12 and 14 stringers. Even though 11/32" is only 1/32" less than 3/8", it makes a decided difference across 12 strings. Since it is accumlative. IE: 1. 3.375 inches on a 10 string @ 3/8". 2. 4.125 inches on a 12 string @ 3/8". That is exactly 3/4" wider. 1. 3.09 inches on a 10 string @ 11/32". 2. 3.781 inches on a 12 string @ 11/32". Or...... 1. 3.375 inches on a 10 string @ 3/8". 2. 3.781 inches on a 12 string @ 11/32". So some feel it is better to narrow the spacing by 1/32" when adding 2 more strings. If one uses metric, (as Excel does), then the spacing is slightly less on the 12 strings, than the 11/32" spacing on PSG's made by American manufacturers. Finaly, because of the changer finger's depth, plus whether or not they use spacers in between the fingers, it is easier to change string spacing on some PSG's than others. Excel uses no spacers on their Superb models. As such, the spacing cannot be reduced to accomadate more strings. carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 28 July 2004 at 01:53 PM.] |
Dean Parks
Member From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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posted 28 July 2004 04:53 PM
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I read a post by Buddy Emmons in another thread: He said he played for a year without finger picks at one point. Was that on a 10 string? I wonder about the spacing on that one.In an email from Mitsuo, he offers as standard an 'Emmons' spacing, but he offers a wider spacing 3,3/8. I see that this 'wider' 3,3/8" is what Carl is calling a standard 10 string spacing. So, is an Emmons brand 10 string narrower than usual? -dean-[This message was edited by Dean Parks on 28 July 2004 at 05:08 PM.] |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 28 July 2004 05:00 PM
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my push-pull and my Fessy are both 5/163 11/16 from center of 1 to center of 12 somebody:
what's a push-pull s-10 or d-10???
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps |
Jeff Agnew
Member From: Dallas, TX
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posted 29 July 2004 04:21 AM
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Dean,Forgive the intrusion on this thread, but you wouldn't be the same Dean Parks as the LA session guitarist would you? Enquiring minds want to know  |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 29 July 2004 04:30 AM
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I like to attempt some Travis/Atkins type things on steel so I need to cover more strings with the bar. On my old ShoBud 12 string I used a 12 string BJS bar but when I got my psuedo Emmons (BMI) the spacing was close enough that I could use a regular 10 string bar which I do now. The ShoBud 12 string was the same spacing on strings 1 through 10 as a 10 string 'bud. I think that Sierra and MSA have the closer spacing like my guitar...have a good 'un, JH------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
Dean Parks
Member From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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posted 29 July 2004 07:44 AM
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Jeff-I confess. |
Jeff Agnew
Member From: Dallas, TX
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posted 29 July 2004 08:57 AM
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Dean,Holy mother of pearl. Okay, this is important: Please go to your steel and quickly do the following:
- Coat all moving parts with Loc-Tite
- Replace all strings with flatwound
- Snip the little wires coming out of the pickups
- Place steel in case, drive to Huntington Beach, and throw steel off end of pier
Because if you play steel anywhere close to how you play guitar, I quit. Frankly, we got too many good steelers already. I think the folks over at Banjo Forum need some new members. Try there. Folks, for those of you who don't know, go to Google and type in "Dean Parks". See what you get. I've been a fan of Dean's work for many years. Welcome. I think |
Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 29 July 2004 09:46 AM
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Welcome Dean! You almost made it under the radar.... |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 29 July 2004 12:04 PM
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I don't remember the S-12 Emmons p/p being any closer than my Sierra S-12 guitars, which are 11/32". And I believe that both were very close to the Sho-Bud 6139 (S-10) that I played before I got them.
I think anyone who puts strings closer together than 11/32" should be shot! ------------------
Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6) |
Al Marcus
Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA
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posted 29 July 2004 07:52 PM
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Carl Dixon has, as usual given us a lot of pertinet information.b0b-I agree about the string spacing should be no less than 11/32. I do like the old Sho-Bud Pro-1 S10 spacing of 3/8 (12/32). For an old out of practice player like me, I like to get my fingers in there without hitting the wrong string and get my wide chords using 4 picks..LOL....al  ------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/ |
Terry Sneed
Member From: El Dorado, Arkansas, USA
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posted 06 August 2004 12:29 PM
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quote"I have seen MSAs with very closely spaced strings, but I don't remember how many strings they had."quoteDavid, I saw a thread by Mr Anderson just the other day, and he said all MSA guitars,
10 string or 12 had the same string spacing. I'm just sayin what I read, I don't know that by experience.
Terry ------------------
84 SKH Emmons Legrand D10
session 400'rd Steelin for my Lord.
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George Kimery
Member From: Limestone, TN, USA
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posted 06 August 2004 05:34 PM
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My last guitar was a Kline U-12 and my current guitar is an Emmons PP SD-12. The Kline definately had closer string spacing than the Emmons. My first guitar was an Emmons D-10. I think the brand of guitar determines the string spacing more than anything else. |
Sidney Ralph Penton
Member From: Moberly, Missouri, USA
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posted 06 August 2004 07:06 PM
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i just bought a used s12 u a carter. i also have a carter starter s10. I measured the distance from the first string to the last on my starter and it is exactly the same distance as 10 strings on my s12 u. I also measured the distance between each string and it is the same on both the s10 and the s12 u. my s12 has 7 floor pedals and 5 knee levers. it is one more knee lever and 4 more foot pedals than my s10. it is going to be more difficult to learn i assume i am just a beginner myself and was doing well on the s10 now i have to learn more on the s 12 u. however i do admit that it looks like the s12 has about 10 strings more than the s10. but i will get used to it in time. i have seen a lot of people wanting to trade a s12 for a s10 i can't understand why the only thing i can say is it has to be personal reasons. oh well time to get-er-done. sid. |
Charles Turpin
Member From: Mexico, Missouri, USA
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posted 08 August 2004 07:02 PM
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Jerry Hayes i will say you are on the right track for that Travis and Chet Atkins finger style licks. The Universal is where that is at. I Have played regular guitar for 40 years before i went to pedal steel guitar. The C6th just isn't where that style is cause the 5th note of the C position isnt present on it unless you have a special kneel lever that raises the 9th string F to a G note. Where as on the E9/B6 you got a whole first, fourth and 5 donminant 7th chords in the bass. That is one thing i always say is a present you do get with that 12 string. Then also another style that people over looked of Chets was his abilities to use the 3rd and minor 3rd intervals, in a style. When playing Chets style always remember when he used the two note harmonies chet would slide or more or less glide into the notes. get that effect by a short slide just before picking the two together. Listen to any Chet Atkins or Jerry Reed, or Merle Travis Picking and you can tell what i am talking about. love this style of guitar. These where my days of paicking. PS What happen to picking like that------------------
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Bob Kagy
Member From: Lafayette, CO USA
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posted 10 August 2004 04:02 PM
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Check out this previous thread involving this topic. It has fascinating comments by both Paul Franklin and Buddy Emmons.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/007797.html Also, when Buddy ordered his new JCH guitar with both a 10 string and 12 string neck, you'll see an answer down in this following post about how the string spacing was handled. So this one may be interesting also.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum4/HTML/006463.html [This message was edited by Bob Kagy on 10 August 2004 at 04:06 PM.] |
gary darr
Member From: Childress,somewhere out in Texas
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posted 11 August 2004 11:08 AM
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I am trading my S-12 Dekley for this very reason,its hard to grab big fat chords,
not sure if Dekley 10 string steel has same spacing as the 12? Will be getting a fessenden S-10, hope this one's a keeper------------------
Dekley S-12 Session 500,American standard Strat,Shecter tele,Peavy Classic 50
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